The compas direction on the elevation circle is wrong

[Nick Carthew]

@LennyO
Corjan is aware of the situation and although he doesn’t reply to many forum posts he does read them.

[Corjan Meijerink]

@Nick-Carthew said:

although he doesn’t reply to many forum posts he does read them.

I don’t?

[Nick Carthew]

@Corjan-Meijerink A direct contradiction

[Con Hennekens]

@LennyO, "North will always be up" in this context refers to the north of the map, not to the north pole

[M. Schrijver]

I know the North Pole and North on the map are not exact the same. But considering the few segments of the compass, should then the north pole and north on the map be same?

[Con Hennekens]

@M.-Schrijver, I don't think that makes it easier for most

[BertM]

@Con-Hennekens said:

@M.-Schrijver, I don't think that makes it easier for most

then this post goes from 50 to 500

[LennyO]

@Con-Hennekens Ok, Con! I get it! Not the most intuitive implementation, but it is what it is....
Having said that, I strongly feel that the manual needs to be updated to state what you and @rob-verhoeff are saying.
Every GPS unit is actually North up if you select such an orientation.
Who would ever deduce, reading the manual, that North does not really mean North when it clearly strates that " in the North Up camera vew ( map orientation ) North will always be up".
When people read "North" they can not imagine that it means "North of the map"....

And that includes myself, which caused a major confusion in my head.
What's going on???? I see a discrepancy between what I thought was North and the Red segment! Re-check the manual. The manual says so, then the Red segment must be wrong, correct?
This whoole thing could be easily resolved in two simple steps:

1. Update the manual
2. Put the N,E,S,W cardinal markings on the segmented circle.
   DONE!
   I am sure you would agree with that

Many people are having issues with this thing, so something needs to be done and hopefully soon.
Thank you!

[Con Hennekens]

@lennyo, In "North Up" North does not mean top, UP means top (of your phone, or paper map, or whatever). Projection of a map has really nothing to do with where North is. North Up is only about how you hold the map. I agree that adding E,S and W would help for some in that it obviously does not indicate your heading, but then again North will still not always point to the top of your phone

[LennyO]

@Con-Hennekens Con, there is an ambiguity and it's never good. Right?

[white.mouse]

As always, there are some in favour and some against. And that will always be the case. A decision has been made and implemented. Some have already got used to it, whilst others may still need to get used to it. For those who navigate using the ‘North Up’ map, just ignore the red square and pretend you don’t see it. For them, north is always visible on the map. But for those who use the map in the direction of travel, it’s a welcome addition.
And since the compass directions never change, it’s simply a matter of getting used to the order: N-E-S-W. Is that difficult? Not for us older folk, anyway.
And let’s not make a fuss about adding all the directions, because the screen is already so crowded!
So . . .

Just see it as a compass rose and remember that the red segment is pointing to the North

[LennyO]

@white.mouse This is your opinion and I respect it. Mine is different, so respect that too.
But that is only half of the problem...
The phraseology in the manual regarding the "North up" map orientation is misleading.
And no matter how many people think that it's ok (for whatever reason...), the fact remains -
the current description in the manual is not clear and does not depict the current state if events.
I do not see how that could be argued or defended or ignored.

This Forum is a shakeout platform that helps developers make the product better and people discover things here and there, that Corjan and the crew may not have seen or did not get to, etc,...
I was an IT developer on Wall street for 40 years and know how that works first hand.

But to say that it's fine or turn it off or look the other way goes against my grain.
I want this product to be the best, that's why I even bother to bring it up.
Not to cause an argument or a confrontation.

The issue has to be acknowledged and then put in the queue for a fix based on the priorities.
That is the professional approach.

So, that's it. I am done. This issue is brought to light and it's not up to me how it will be resolved.
All I know is that new users will be confused and frustrated if it's left like it is now.
It is not my Product, not my business and not my decision.

And all I am suggesting really is to change one... ONE sentence in the manual to create proper expectations.
Thank you all for your thoughts!

[Stevedo 6 0]

@LennyO said:

@white.mouse This is your opinion and I respect it. Mine is different, so respect that too.
But that is only half of the problem...
The phraseology in the manual regarding the "North up" map orientation is misleading.
And no matter how many people think that it's ok (for whatever reason...), the fact remains -
the current description in the manual is not clear and does not depict the current state if events.
I do not see how that could be argued or defended or ignored.

This Forum is a shakeout platform that helps developers make the product better and people discover things here and there, that Corjan and the crew may not have seen or did not get to, etc,...
I was an IT developer on Wall street for 40 years and know how that works first hand.

But to say that it's fine or turn it off or look the other way goes against my grain.
I want this product to be the best, that's why I even bother to bring it up.
Not to cause an argument or a confrontation.

The issue has to be acknowledged and then put in the queue for a fix based on the priorities.
That is the professional approach.

So, that's it. I am done. This issue is brought to light and it's not up to me how it will be resolved.
All I know is that new users will be confused and frustrated if it's left like it is now.
It is not my Product, not my business and not my decision.

And all I am suggesting really is to change one... ONE sentence in the manual to create proper expectations.
Thank you all for your thoughts!

Well said. There are a small number of, I call them MRA jihadists, on here whose approach seems to be not to accept anything that they consider to be negative feedback against MRA. I'm relatively new around here and to MRA but in my short time here I'm not the first one to have noticed this and called it out. You gave perfectly sound and reasoned feedback. The response was to keep arguing until you eventually gave up. Maybe that's the strategy? IMHO, there is far too much of people putting their fingers in their ears and saying la la la la I can't hear you. I retired from the corporate world at the age of fifty in 2013. Over time, the culture had changed to one where negative feedback, no matter how constructive, was viewed negatively and only positive feedback would be accepted. These forums often remind me of that time.

I fully appreciate the things that I've learnt from these forums and their contributors. My fear is, as you put it, unless issues are acknowledged and then put in a queue for a fix, MRA will never become the best. Right now I do not recommend MRA Next to anyone, there are too many issues. MRA planner on the other hand, at the moment, is great and I have used it extensively. I will use it to plan routes for an upcoming motorcycle trip to Australia but will continue to use those routes and tracks in my Garmin. My fear here is that MRA Planner is currently being re-written and may turn out to be not so great as a result.

[white.mouse]

I respect everyone’s opinion, that why I started with "As always, there are some in favour and some against. And that will always be the case."

[M. Schrijver]

@stevedo-6-0
Amen.
I'm walking against the same wall.
I've been here from the beginning. The planner is good but the navigation still can't convince me.

[Con Hennekens]

@Stevedo-6-0 said:

There are a small number of, I call them MRA jihadists, on here whose approach seems to be not to accept anything that they consider to be negative feedback against MRA.

I am very curious whether you count me in this group... I call it nothing but a sound discussion, and try to explain what how things work, as a courtesy to MRA and their users.

@LennyO said:

And all I am suggesting really is to change one... ONE sentence in the manual to create proper expectations.

I took another look at that sentence:

To be honest I cannot see anything wrong with it. The whole section if the manual is about camera view, not about heading, not about showing where north is in. The only problem I recognize, is that that button is called "Compass", it does not fit its purpose, especially since we have the new compass that actually shows where north is, like any compass should. So maybe the title of that button should be altered to "camera mode button" or "Map view button" or something alike.

I don't think Corjan expected a 60 comment thread about this when he implemented the new compass

[LennyO]

@Con-Hennekens Hi, Con!
Like I said above, I really did not want to continue on this, but out of respect to you and others who provide so much help here (no matter if we agree or disagree on some points), I will say this:

Considering how you describe the intent of the functionality in question, I would venture to say that the whole implementation is then flawed...
Let me explain.
(please, forget everything you know about it and look at it thru the mind of a new user)

1. You are correct, the Compass should not be the Title if it as it has NOTHING to do with anything that Compass does. This sets the wrong expectation righ off the bet.

2. The Symbol that looks like a Compass should not be used, because it (as you have mentioned) has NOTHING to do with anything that Compass does or how it works.

3. When anyone reads a word "North", how can it be expected that anything other than a True / Magnetic North and/or cardinals on a Compass would pop in one's mind???

Now we have 2 strikes: words "Compass" + "North", so this "obviously" must have to do with Cardinals on Compass, no?

4. What would a person think of when he/she reads "North up"?
   I say that whatever he/she is looking at is oriented so, that the cardinal North is UP, meaning the top of the screen, no?
   Further it states : "When the camera is in this mode, north will alllways be up" then it is reasonable to expect that on the screen with a route the "North up" configuration the North should be UP, meaning on top of the screesn, no? What other "UP" could be implied... the sky?

5. In Dynamic mode however, the Compass Symbol disappears and a Blue triangle appears AND it spins as you move, just LIKE A COMPASS.....

So, now add the Red segment on the elevation circle to the mix and it becomes blantantly clear that when one needs to simply know in which direction the nose is pointing, is it impossible without doing the mental acrobatics because the compass is not really a Compass, the North is not really North, the map orientation in "North will be always UP" is not really that either.....
And all that is happening when you are in traffic, riding and should be spending your mental focus on the road and safety... NOT trying to interpret what was meant vs how it really is or whatever else...

So, I think it is pretty clear that this needs attention.
And the fact that this Topic has many posts only proves that there is ambiguity to address.

To everyone and anyone who reads this - In case my logic and my view is not correct, please provide your counter arguments.
We all are after one and same goal - to make the Nav App better for all of us!

P.S.
I love MRA, and as a Road Captain of our local BMW club (240+ members), I use it all the time and love planning the Routes on it. For a while I have been trying to move away from my Garmin XT and lean on the MRA Nav more and more, thus encountering question and issues.
Because I am so impressed with the product, I give classes to our Club members and also at the Rally that we hold with 250+ members and guests from all over, trying to promote MRA.
A dozen of Club members already have become Gold level subscribers.
Because I am impressed with it, I have a Gold lifetime membership myself and invested time and effort to become a Route Expert (level 3 now) and will continue going thru the ranks.

So, on this Forum I represent not only my own voice but my Club members as well, who channel every question and issue thru me.
I am just saying that there are many more people who are having issues than we see here on the Forum, but they are silent for a variety of reasons.

Salute!

[Con Hennekens]

@lennyo , I am sorry, let's agree to disagree on this specific subject. To me (with our without knowledge) the North on a map (or camera view) will never be confused with the North as a heading. To be brutally honest, the subject in my opinion is not worth so many words. That being said, I have no doubt that devs will take the many suggestions from everyone in this thread into consideration. I will not further repeat myself. Luckily we agree on many other subjects Let's cherish that!

[Ioan Dragulescu]

I've read this whole thread about 3 times now, because I was trying to understand what the problem is, and it took me a while.

As far as I know, this is how maps have always worked, digital or analogue. Take a paper map, that has north marked on it, place a compass on top of it and start rotating. The compass North will obviously not coincide with the north of the map while you look at it and from your perspective the map's north will always be up as you hold it and look at it.

So how can the camera map view setting that is called North up can possible have any other meaning?

That being said I agree that the suggestions people made in previous posts about the UI can only help and by that I mean having the cardinal points being shown on the compass wheel or having the traveling direction written on top or below, in typical fashion, NNW, SSE and so on.