Placement of waypoints
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I have always been a fan of many waypoints! I want to ride the roads I want to go on, so I figure more waypoints, the better chance I have to stay on the route I want to go. However when MRA goes ballistic and takes me places I never thought (which it does). I reach out for help, every time they say way to many waypoints! So guess I'm just looking for that right placement. I don't understand "to many waypoints" If I go 5 miles and put 50 waypoints in, what's the problem? Will it keep me on route (route that I want?). Again just looking for that fine line, what to do and what not to do...
@D-Griffin as I said I don't believe there technical reason to use less points
there is a maximum number of 200 points so you are limited on how crazy you can getthe only reason I can see for anyone to say use less is if a point does not achieve anything as @Marinus-van-Deudekom alludes to
if you have a point A at the beginning & point B at end of a road & there are no junctions between them & there is no obvious other way to get from A to B, like a motorway parallel to the road you want to use, then is a bit pointless placing another point half way between those pointsif you take a look at the MRA route Library you can find plenty of good examples of routes by RouteXperts with good waypoint placement
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Personally I prefer less to more. I find too more many waypoints just onscures other information about the route, eg distances to junctions or stops etc. But I use MRA for planning and Tom Tom for navigating.
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@D-Griffin if you really want to navigate a particular road then you need to place a point on it
if you don't place a point on that particular road & the route is recalculated for any reason, then it may miss / deviate away from the road you wanted to doThe only reason I can think of for not having lots of points is that this can make waypoint list quite long, so maybe a bit more scrolling & the map can look a little cluttered
I don't believe there is any technical reason or benefit to using less points
If your sharing routes with others using different navigation devices, Garmin, Tomtom or other phone apps, then you definitely want to opt for lots of points as each different device will calculate the route a little differently, the more points you have then the smaller these differences can beMy preference is for a lot of points so that the route always follows the path I planned
@Brian-McG said in Placement of waypoints:
I don't believe there is any technical reason or benefit to using less points
There certainly is!
Too many waypoints makes the auto-skip function unworkable. I often see people place so many waypoints that it gives the skip algorithm no room for skipping around any obstacle. Also I see sometimes people using so many waypoints that they pass multiple ones while trying to skip one... I'd say the opposite is true: there is no benefit in using too many waypoints...I am just an enthusiastic MRA user, and hope you will be one too!
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebar to the saddle.
Streetpilot 2610/Zumo 660/Zumo 395/ CAT S52 + MRA app -
@Brian-McG said in Placement of waypoints:
I don't believe there is any technical reason or benefit to using less points
There certainly is!
Too many waypoints makes the auto-skip function unworkable. I often see people place so many waypoints that it gives the skip algorithm no room for skipping around any obstacle. Also I see sometimes people using so many waypoints that they pass multiple ones while trying to skip one... I'd say the opposite is true: there is no benefit in using too many waypoints...@Con-Hennekens I think your highlighting how bad the skip function is rather than a technical reason for not using lots of points
BlackView BV7100, Android 12
Normaly navigate Routes in Offline mode with Offline Maps -
@Con-Hennekens I think your highlighting how bad the skip function is rather than a technical reason for not using lots of points
@Brian-McG what @Con-Hennekens said is certainly valid. Why, imagine all those useless many shapingpoints and something occurs on your route. The auto skip function will have some difficulties arranging the wright route without the obstacle.
Like I said try to delete shapingpoints and if the route stays the same you can consider them useless.
I can think of one exception: of you're using an XT some extra points could be useful. Thus ensuring the XT to not mess up your route -
@Brian-McG said in Placement of waypoints:
I don't believe there is any technical reason or benefit to using less points
There certainly is!
Too many waypoints makes the auto-skip function unworkable. I often see people place so many waypoints that it gives the skip algorithm no room for skipping around any obstacle. Also I see sometimes people using so many waypoints that they pass multiple ones while trying to skip one... I'd say the opposite is true: there is no benefit in using too many waypoints...@Con-Hennekens Ok so with this info being said, If I route a route from point A to point B and I just let MRA do its work, Do I need any waypoints? Or will it follow what it suggest? For instance...the following route?
https://www.myrouteapp.com/en/social/route/11944724?mode=shareIf I don't put any waypoints, will MRA take me on the roads that are shown on this route? Thanks for the feedback, I thought I had this figured out, but maybe not!! Nothing wrong with a little more knowledge...
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@D-Griffin if you really want to navigate a particular road then you need to place a point on it
if you don't place a point on that particular road & the route is recalculated for any reason, then it may miss / deviate away from the road you wanted to doThe only reason I can think of for not having lots of points is that this can make waypoint list quite long, so maybe a bit more scrolling & the map can look a little cluttered
I don't believe there is any technical reason or benefit to using less points
If your sharing routes with others using different navigation devices, Garmin, Tomtom or other phone apps, then you definitely want to opt for lots of points as each different device will calculate the route a little differently, the more points you have then the smaller these differences can beMy preference is for a lot of points so that the route always follows the path I planned
@Brian-McG Is there a limit to how many waypoints you can have?
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@Con-Hennekens Ok so with this info being said, If I route a route from point A to point B and I just let MRA do its work, Do I need any waypoints? Or will it follow what it suggest? For instance...the following route?
https://www.myrouteapp.com/en/social/route/11944724?mode=shareIf I don't put any waypoints, will MRA take me on the roads that are shown on this route? Thanks for the feedback, I thought I had this figured out, but maybe not!! Nothing wrong with a little more knowledge...
@D-Griffin Yes it will but…… If you take a route that long, over 500 something is boud to happen on that route and it will cause the route to be different than intendant. You might miss Some places or sites you want to see.
If you like an d’aventure, shure go ahead. My guess that you would want to go to Some specific places so put in shaping and viapoints to make sure you pass those.
As said not to many but certainly not to less -
@Con-Hennekens Ok so with this info being said, If I route a route from point A to point B and I just let MRA do its work, Do I need any waypoints? Or will it follow what it suggest? For instance...the following route?
https://www.myrouteapp.com/en/social/route/11944724?mode=shareIf I don't put any waypoints, will MRA take me on the roads that are shown on this route? Thanks for the feedback, I thought I had this figured out, but maybe not!! Nothing wrong with a little more knowledge...
@D-Griffin said in Placement of waypoints:
If I don't put any waypoints, will MRA take me on the roads that are shown on this route?
Yes of course, but only until something happens...
If it is an A2B route (destination only) it will guide you following the route preferences defined at the start of your navigation session. That means if you deviate, another quickest route could be found and and your route (which is not really a route but just a destination) is obsolete. Also traffic info can lead to alternative quickest routes. Just like with for example Google Maps
If you used some curvy options to your destination it works very differently! In case of curvy options (in the app!) your "route" will become a track that gets navigated. If you deviate, the app tries to lead you back to the track.
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@Con-Hennekens Ok so with this info being said, If I route a route from point A to point B and I just let MRA do its work, Do I need any waypoints? Or will it follow what it suggest? For instance...the following route?
https://www.myrouteapp.com/en/social/route/11944724?mode=shareIf I don't put any waypoints, will MRA take me on the roads that are shown on this route? Thanks for the feedback, I thought I had this figured out, but maybe not!! Nothing wrong with a little more knowledge...
@D-Griffin, I am sorry, I answered your post before I saw the route you linked, so I want to add this:
The route you linked shows a destination only route. What I told about a an A2B route also counts for everything routed between 2 waypoints, like in your route. By having waypoints this far from each other leaves a lot of options for alternative routes being quicker. If you want specific roads to be followed, you will have to point them out by placing shaping points.
There is however one trick you can use: you can enable "Navigate route-as-track" in the app settings. In that case your "route" will be navigated as a track, and then the "leading back to a track" takes place whenever you deviate.
I am just an enthusiastic MRA user, and hope you will be one too!
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebar to the saddle.
Streetpilot 2610/Zumo 660/Zumo 395/ CAT S52 + MRA app -
@D-Griffin, I am sorry, I answered your post before I saw the route you linked, so I want to add this:
The route you linked shows a destination only route. What I told about a an A2B route also counts for everything routed between 2 waypoints, like in your route. By having waypoints this far from each other leaves a lot of options for alternative routes being quicker. If you want specific roads to be followed, you will have to point them out by placing shaping points.
There is however one trick you can use: you can enable "Navigate route-as-track" in the app settings. In that case your "route" will be navigated as a track, and then the "leading back to a track" takes place whenever you deviate.
@Con-Hennekens Forgive my ignorance what is the difference between a track and a waypoint? I have watched all the online videos and I am convinced maybe I'm setting to many waypoints (I do set a lot!) which is causing this thing to get lost, skip waypoints for no reason or even skip waypoints I haven't even reached yet. I am just trying to find that magic distance between waypoints to keep me on track. Tonight I will be working on editing a route for a upcoming weekend ride. I know it has a lot of waypoints, so I'll go back thru and see if I can get rid of some and spread the others out. I really want to like the MRA route app, and I am trying to understand the best I can so I can trust it. I guess thats the real thing, I don't trust it which makes riding a little stressful. I will keep it up though and hopefully get this correct.
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@Con-Hennekens Forgive my ignorance what is the difference between a track and a waypoint? I have watched all the online videos and I am convinced maybe I'm setting to many waypoints (I do set a lot!) which is causing this thing to get lost, skip waypoints for no reason or even skip waypoints I haven't even reached yet. I am just trying to find that magic distance between waypoints to keep me on track. Tonight I will be working on editing a route for a upcoming weekend ride. I know it has a lot of waypoints, so I'll go back thru and see if I can get rid of some and spread the others out. I really want to like the MRA route app, and I am trying to understand the best I can so I can trust it. I guess thats the real thing, I don't trust it which makes riding a little stressful. I will keep it up though and hopefully get this correct.
@D-Griffin said in Placement of waypoints:
what is the difference between a track and a waypoint?
A waypoint has nothing to do with tracks. Multiple waypoints can form a route. A route is formed by multiple waypoints (VIA or shaping-points). A track is a breadcrumb-trail. It can be recorded while driving (a tracklog) or it can be generated from a route (a route-track). The MRA app can navigate tracks as well as routes (of course...) but to be hones I think the track method has some limitations and also some problems. I advise to disable the "Navigate route as track" feature for now, and concentrate on navigating real and well designed routes.
I am just trying to find that magic distance between waypoints to keep me on track.
The use of the term "track" in this case is probably what's confusing you. Wit a route, simply designed in the MRA web-planner, and opend for navigation in the app (with the "Navigate route as track" feature disabled) is not a track, but a route
There is no "magic" distance between waypoints. It really depends on the density of roads in the area you are riding in. In mountainesque areas waypoints can often be over 20km apart, while is urban flatlands like the Netherlands sometimes you need multiple waypoints within a few kilometers. My thumb of rule is to place waypoints about every 5 kilometers, and I often check of something changes when I remove one. If nothing changes it is an obsolete waypoint.
You have to consider the skipping algorithm. If you can't reach a certain point, and the algorithm skips to the next WP which is only 500 mtrs ahead, it does likely not solve the problem of not reaching the previous one. It will then have to skip again, but that takes multiple recalculations. In the meantime you will likely be passing other waypoints and your navigation effs up
On the other hand, if distances between waypoints are too large, an auto-skipp will eff up your route by cutting out a large piece of your route. The best practice is somewhere in the middle -
@D-Griffin I don't want to come across as a high school teacher...
I mean it in a friendly way, but it's really a difference between operating Google maps and operating route planning tools. It would be easier for you (and for some who are going to help you) if you would become familiar with correct terms (wording).As @Con-Hennekens explained:
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a route is a collection of (limited) routepoints, which are entered over a map during planning. The navigation tool is using the map and the roads in, to calculate the way to the next route point over that streets. And will give you instructions how to ride.
Often such points are called imprecise as "Waypoints". -
a track is a collection of trackpoints, which can also be entered over a map. Or can be recorded during ride by navigation tool (MyRoute-App calls it then Tracklog).
The navigation tool is using that points, to draw a line as overlay on the map. It does not have the need of a map to draw the line, because the points are close to each other. And therefore the navigation tool can not guide you! Exception: MyRoute-App can do it
Routepoints can get a name (and in MyRoute-App also a description) and will presented on the map. But a Trackpoint can't get a name and will not presented on the map (only a line from one to the next trackpoint).
- third type of a point (along gpx rules) is the real Waypoint. It can be entered simply as POI; then it's only visible as point on the map. Or it will be entered additionally as Routepoint; then it is also included in the route and affects the route.
May it sounds a bit complicated, but it is not. You may plan a route, save it as gpx file on your computer. Then open this file by an Text editor; it's readable and you can find the terms:
<wpt> which is a description of a way point, means a POI, which is not a route point!
There can be a couple of such way points in the file.
<rte> which is the beginning of a description of a route with a couple (min. 2) of <rtept> which each is a route point.
<trk> which is the beginning of a description of a track with many <trkpt> which each is a track point.I tried to keep it simpl; some experts may not 100% agree. It's not necessary to understand everything in such a file. But it gives a you glimpse of the official terms and how to use it in discussions.
Nothing is impossible ;-)
In past: GARMIN Zumo 210->GARMIN Zumo 395->GARMIN XT=> now: DMD T865-X + MyRoute-App, LocusMaps, OsmAnd.
In past: GARMIN MapSource ->GARMIN BaseCamp->Tyre->Kurviger->Calimoto=> now: MRA-Routplanner. -
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@D-Griffin I don't want to come across as a high school teacher...
I mean it in a friendly way, but it's really a difference between operating Google maps and operating route planning tools. It would be easier for you (and for some who are going to help you) if you would become familiar with correct terms (wording).As @Con-Hennekens explained:
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a route is a collection of (limited) routepoints, which are entered over a map during planning. The navigation tool is using the map and the roads in, to calculate the way to the next route point over that streets. And will give you instructions how to ride.
Often such points are called imprecise as "Waypoints". -
a track is a collection of trackpoints, which can also be entered over a map. Or can be recorded during ride by navigation tool (MyRoute-App calls it then Tracklog).
The navigation tool is using that points, to draw a line as overlay on the map. It does not have the need of a map to draw the line, because the points are close to each other. And therefore the navigation tool can not guide you! Exception: MyRoute-App can do it
Routepoints can get a name (and in MyRoute-App also a description) and will presented on the map. But a Trackpoint can't get a name and will not presented on the map (only a line from one to the next trackpoint).
- third type of a point (along gpx rules) is the real Waypoint. It can be entered simply as POI; then it's only visible as point on the map. Or it will be entered additionally as Routepoint; then it is also included in the route and affects the route.
May it sounds a bit complicated, but it is not. You may plan a route, save it as gpx file on your computer. Then open this file by an Text editor; it's readable and you can find the terms:
<wpt> which is a description of a way point, means a POI, which is not a route point!
There can be a couple of such way points in the file.
<rte> which is the beginning of a description of a route with a couple (min. 2) of <rtept> which each is a route point.
<trk> which is the beginning of a description of a track with many <trkpt> which each is a track point.I tried to keep it simpl; some experts may not 100% agree. It's not necessary to understand everything in such a file. But it gives a you glimpse of the official terms and how to use it in discussions.
@Guzzist Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it. I have been doing most of my mapping via waypoints and have had pretty good success. However had a few rides that went not so great. So my question on waypoints I was really looking at is to much OK? When I plan a ride I want to take the roads I want to take, like I have said since I arrived at this forum. Google doesn't allow it, but MRA does. However sometimes this thing throws me for a loop and all I'm doing is trying to get all the info I can so i can understand better. Maybe I should play with the "tracks" and see if it works better. I have watched all the online You tube videos, however a few things have changed. Not everything thats on those videos is valid in MRA anymore, or maybe they improved it.
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@D-Griffin I don't want to come across as a high school teacher...
I mean it in a friendly way, but it's really a difference between operating Google maps and operating route planning tools. It would be easier for you (and for some who are going to help you) if you would become familiar with correct terms (wording).As @Con-Hennekens explained:
-
a route is a collection of (limited) routepoints, which are entered over a map during planning. The navigation tool is using the map and the roads in, to calculate the way to the next route point over that streets. And will give you instructions how to ride.
Often such points are called imprecise as "Waypoints". -
a track is a collection of trackpoints, which can also be entered over a map. Or can be recorded during ride by navigation tool (MyRoute-App calls it then Tracklog).
The navigation tool is using that points, to draw a line as overlay on the map. It does not have the need of a map to draw the line, because the points are close to each other. And therefore the navigation tool can not guide you! Exception: MyRoute-App can do it
Routepoints can get a name (and in MyRoute-App also a description) and will presented on the map. But a Trackpoint can't get a name and will not presented on the map (only a line from one to the next trackpoint).
- third type of a point (along gpx rules) is the real Waypoint. It can be entered simply as POI; then it's only visible as point on the map. Or it will be entered additionally as Routepoint; then it is also included in the route and affects the route.
May it sounds a bit complicated, but it is not. You may plan a route, save it as gpx file on your computer. Then open this file by an Text editor; it's readable and you can find the terms:
<wpt> which is a description of a way point, means a POI, which is not a route point!
There can be a couple of such way points in the file.
<rte> which is the beginning of a description of a route with a couple (min. 2) of <rtept> which each is a route point.
<trk> which is the beginning of a description of a track with many <trkpt> which each is a track point.I tried to keep it simpl; some experts may not 100% agree. It's not necessary to understand everything in such a file. But it gives a you glimpse of the official terms and how to use it in discussions.
@Guzzist I feel I paid good money for a product and just want to understand it better, thats all! The more info a person can get the better a person can be. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, maybe I don't understand how MRA fully works yet. Maybe I though it was a product that it isn't. I don't know I just appreciate the feedback. I'm all for trying ideas, because thats more time spent on my bike! However I would like to have the confidence to plot a route across the USA and feel confident I will get there...This has not always been the case. I'm not quite there yet, however am willing to put in the time to get there and fully understand....
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